If SBI can lower car loans to 8%, how much lower can they go on property ? I remember in Jan 2003, StanChart was offering loans at 7.75% with the some other banks offering 7.25% variable. Now the rate schedules are announced in advance, so people will have visibility into the rates for the 2nd and 3rd year, instead of just floating/variable rate. As of the latest SBI announcements its 8% for the 1st year and 10% for the 2nd and 3rd year. Still not bad when compared to 12-14% rates a year ago. Add to this the increase in the income tax deduction for housing interest loans from 1.5L to 3L. It appears that just like the US, the Indian government bailout of the housing industry is on track to boost property prices. We are back to the races now. How much will the home buyer bite is everbody's guess ?
Sunday, 28 June 2009
Wednesday, 24 June 2009
Hi All,
It would be great to have actual rates from various projects recorded over a period of time. This will help us to understand the trend of real estate prices.
The trend should be derived from data gathered from guys like us "on the street", not from some biased reports of property consultants.
The idea is that we can have a database-on-the-web to capture real estate rates.
With a few hours effort, I created a google spreadsheet to record the rates over time from a single project in Kothrud, Pune. The pricelists have been grabbed from the builder's website from March 2009 to June 2009.
The latest pricelist can be viewed here:
http://www.pethkarprojects.com/samrajya/availability.pdf
The spreadsheet can be viewed here:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=rmv0n4AJNHEfU_5RRg1I_bQ
Creating a chart, we can see that the rate is the same for the past 4 months!! Compare this with the boom period when rates used to increase every month. Definitely, real estate in Kothrud, Pune has flattened out.
The google spreadsheet is not appropriate for large amounts of data which can start pouring in from various cities, so I have also created a mysql database with multiple tables.
How to gather the data?
1. Quoted by builders - this can be done by gathering pricelists of the projects at exhibitions, or from the website of the builder.
From the pricelist, we need to calculate the carpet area (excluding terraces, balconies, and other non FSI related areas) and the total cost to the buyer (including stamp duty, registration, one time maintanenance etc i.e. everything).
The carpet area, total cost and date can be entered into the database.
Entering pricelists into the database will have to be done by moderators.
2. Posted anonymously by real buyers:
Anyone who has purchased a property can anonymously post the carpet area, total cost and date. The anonymous user is not allowed to enter data directly into the database, he can post in this blog and a few moderators like us who have write permission to the database will enter his post.
What if someone posts a misleading rate? I believe 1o people can lie, but 1000 people will not lie. When we have hundreds and thousands of unique users posting rates, the misleading posts become statistically insignificant. This is the same principle on which www.carwale.com operates.
Also a restriction is that a user can post only the rate for a property he has actually bought, so we can restrict posts to 1 post each month per email id.
People can also post links to builder's websites which have published pricelists.
There can be a discussion on how to allow anonymous posts.
We can have admin / moderators for each city, like I and someone else can do for Pune.
I can help with the perl code, sql and database, domain name, hosting, but I aint no website designer. Maybe we can form a team to collaborate on the website?
It would be great to have actual rates from various projects recorded over a period of time. This will help us to understand the trend of real estate prices.
The trend should be derived from data gathered from guys like us "on the street", not from some biased reports of property consultants.
The idea is that we can have a database-on-the-web to capture real estate rates.
With a few hours effort, I created a google spreadsheet to record the rates over time from a single project in Kothrud, Pune. The pricelists have been grabbed from the builder's website from March 2009 to June 2009.
The latest pricelist can be viewed here:
http://www.pethkarprojects.com/samrajya/availability.pdf
The spreadsheet can be viewed here:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=rmv0n4AJNHEfU_5RRg1I_bQ
Creating a chart, we can see that the rate is the same for the past 4 months!! Compare this with the boom period when rates used to increase every month. Definitely, real estate in Kothrud, Pune has flattened out.
The google spreadsheet is not appropriate for large amounts of data which can start pouring in from various cities, so I have also created a mysql database with multiple tables.
How to gather the data?
1. Quoted by builders - this can be done by gathering pricelists of the projects at exhibitions, or from the website of the builder.
From the pricelist, we need to calculate the carpet area (excluding terraces, balconies, and other non FSI related areas) and the total cost to the buyer (including stamp duty, registration, one time maintanenance etc i.e. everything).
The carpet area, total cost and date can be entered into the database.
Entering pricelists into the database will have to be done by moderators.
2. Posted anonymously by real buyers:
Anyone who has purchased a property can anonymously post the carpet area, total cost and date. The anonymous user is not allowed to enter data directly into the database, he can post in this blog and a few moderators like us who have write permission to the database will enter his post.
What if someone posts a misleading rate? I believe 1o people can lie, but 1000 people will not lie. When we have hundreds and thousands of unique users posting rates, the misleading posts become statistically insignificant. This is the same principle on which www.carwale.com operates.
Also a restriction is that a user can post only the rate for a property he has actually bought, so we can restrict posts to 1 post each month per email id.
People can also post links to builder's websites which have published pricelists.
There can be a discussion on how to allow anonymous posts.
We can have admin / moderators for each city, like I and someone else can do for Pune.
I can help with the perl code, sql and database, domain name, hosting, but I aint no website designer. Maybe we can form a team to collaborate on the website?
Crisil reporting accurately on the state of the housing market in India.
>>> Real estate companies have been launching newer residential projects at lower prices that >>>are located in "far-flung" locations (exhurbs) from the central business districts of cities. The Reuters article is below.
This statement is 1000% true. We see launches in Kalyan, Virar, Boisar in Mumbai which are 3 hours away from business districts. It makes no sense to commute 1/4 of your life every day and still be under the duress of loans. Life is more then loans and commute. Builders have bought land at sky high prices in the Mumbai suburbs and the only way out for them is an increase in FSI. I think in the coming years the Maharashtra govt will do just that. Prices will drop to more sober levels once that happens. Anyone buying at 8k per sq/ft will be rueing the decision for the rest of the loan life.
India's residential sector likely to see oversupply - Crisil
MUMBAI (Reuters) - India's realty companies will struggle to find buyers for about a fourth of their residential space between 2009 and 2011, the research arm of rating agency Crisil said in a report on Wednesday.
During 2009-2011, Crisil Research said it expects absorption of 506 million sq. ft. over the three years based on its expectation of a GDP growth of 6-6.5 percent in 2009/10, according to its study of 10 cities across India.
Although planned supply has been estimated at 1,202 million sq. ft., this supply "is unlikely to materialise in full due to the credit crunch and relatively sluggish demand," and the actual supply will be around 700 million sq. ft., it said.
This indicates 28 percent will be in oversupply while much of the planned projects will be delayed by up to two years and others in the planning stage, shelved.
Indian real estate saw demand for housing collapse in the second half of 2008 amidst a global credit crunch and the local market became stressed with buyers fearing job losses, Sudhir Nair, head-Crisil Research said.
The market is expected to stabilise in 2010, he added, "the Indian economy will stabilise and start accelerating and there will be stability in the global economy and fund constraints will be eroded."
Builders had also reduced unit sizes and cut prices, which will help stabilise demand, he said.
Residential prices are expected to fall further by 8-10 percent in 2009 before stabilising the next year and Crisil Research expects investors to maintain a cautionary approach until values stabilise, it added in the report.
Real estate companies have been launching newer residential projects at lower prices that are located in "far-flung" locations from the central business districts of cities.
MUMBAI (Reuters) - India's realty companies will struggle to find buyers for about a fourth of their residential space between 2009 and 2011, the research arm of rating agency Crisil said in a report on Wednesday.
During 2009-2011, Crisil Research said it expects absorption of 506 million sq. ft. over the three years based on its expectation of a GDP growth of 6-6.5 percent in 2009/10, according to its study of 10 cities across India.
Although planned supply has been estimated at 1,202 million sq. ft., this supply "is unlikely to materialise in full due to the credit crunch and relatively sluggish demand," and the actual supply will be around 700 million sq. ft., it said.
This indicates 28 percent will be in oversupply while much of the planned projects will be delayed by up to two years and others in the planning stage, shelved.
Indian real estate saw demand for housing collapse in the second half of 2008 amidst a global credit crunch and the local market became stressed with buyers fearing job losses, Sudhir Nair, head-Crisil Research said.
The market is expected to stabilise in 2010, he added, "the Indian economy will stabilise and start accelerating and there will be stability in the global economy and fund constraints will be eroded."
Builders had also reduced unit sizes and cut prices, which will help stabilise demand, he said.
Residential prices are expected to fall further by 8-10 percent in 2009 before stabilising the next year and Crisil Research expects investors to maintain a cautionary approach until values stabilise, it added in the report.
Real estate companies have been launching newer residential projects at lower prices that are located in "far-flung" locations from the central business districts of cities.
Readers and folks who comment on the blog like Priti, Shyna, Vandana, Abeer , the good BB, Retired old man, Bharat, Shriniwas, Shubh Chintak have noticed some several off-topic, irrelevant and offensive comments on the blog. I can turn on the moderator mode, however the feedback loop of posting a comment and seeing it visible on the blog immediately is lost. At the end of the day I can clean up the posts and comments. BB or whoever is masquerading as BB will eventually tire out by entering the CAPTCHA characters, but if his only goal in life is to troll this blog 24x7 and keep slandering, I will be forced to turn the moderator mode on and then reject all his comments.
What do you guys think ? I think we have a good discussion going on prices, areas, builders and the collective wisdom of people is helping everyone including myself. I had no idea about the price rise in the DDA cluster of Mayur Vihar, so keep up the good work and let us all keep posting. Even the casual reader has something to contribute so don't be shy. We all are looking for insights from the real world, not bogus planted articles by TOI , Jones Meghraj and others.
Sunday, 21 June 2009
MUMBAI: The increase in the demand for housing in the past one month appears to be restricted to resale do not have too many takers, at least not in the large cities. In the case of new projects, developers have been offering attractive discounts, while prices in the resale segment have remained high.
Agreed Sunil Bajaj, another city-based property consultant, “The asking rate for old property market is not in line with the prevailing market rate. In Kandivali (a suburb in western Mumbai), the price of an apartment on the first floor on a per square foot basis was as expensive as the one on the penthouse in the same building.” He added that the flat has remained unsold.
Potential buyers have not been finding the going easy. Amit Desai, a Mumbai-based professional employed in a large business group, is one such person. “For a salaried employee, the rates for older property is out of reach since sellers ask for at least 30% of the price in black. This means you get a loan only on the white component (the price after deducting the black component).”
Industry observers said new property has witnessed a price drop of 30-50% in the past six months that is the result of developers facing a liquidity crunch and falling demand. Some buyers have chosen not to go ahead with the purchase, as they feared the property might not be completed. This has led developers to offer schemes like getting the buyer to make a partial payment initially and pay the rest at the time of possession.
Saturday, 20 June 2009
After basic fundamentals are taken into account, most markets (housing, stock,loans ) are driven by psychology. People buy things based on what others are buying. The media plays its role in shaping the opinion and perception about goods and services and common sense will tell you how people buy and sell based on news articles in the media. Many times people are stricken by fear and sell too early - For this see the Cramer video on how market makers plant stories and move stocks.
My theory is that the bad news trend is down. People yawn when yesterday's unemployment figures in the US were announced and the stock market moved higher, inspite of record unemployment.
What my little brain can infer is that the government is going to throw the kitchen sink at the problem and several articles have pointed to inflation to rise in the coming months. The US I-Bonds limit has been lowered to 5,000$ per person from 30000$. The government does not want to pay the CPI inflation for the bond since it thinks that is the what is on the horizon. Some people are forecasting US inflation at 5% in the coming years.
In India I see the government pumping money in by lowering rates and drawing out all the fence sitters to buy in the property market. However they will make loans very hard to get so the black component of the market will rise. I still don't see how we can justify 60L apts in remote areas or 1 cr apts in developed areas if only funded by loans.
There are other issues like timely delivery of apts, poor construction, cheating which are bigger issues in the apt buying process. Those have to be analyzed more closely and the only thing the buyer can do is to beware and go for ready possession clear titles properties.
I still see a big demand in people wanting housing, the only thing as we all know is the price is too high even after the 25% drops in most mid-segment housing prices.
Tuesday, 16 June 2009
Bloomberg reporting. I think this effect will be on India too as the Indian government begins a spending spree awarding contracts to Indian and foreign firms. Already there are indications of the F-16/F-18 deal with Raytheon and more will follow. The governments will try their best to spend themselves out of the recessionary spiral. More money will be printed and overall everyone will think they have more money, only that that money will buy less. The sixth pay commission is another example of spending. Instead of reiging in inflation, the government is printing more money which will make it less valuable. Elections cannot be won if people have less money which buy more things, but when people have more money which buy less things. In the latter case the government is seen as helping the citizens, and blaming the foreign governments including OPEC as the villians.
With reference to Indian housing I think this spells bad news. Prices drops will be stalled as money enters the system looking for value. Today I got an offer by ICICI bank which mentioned about a Chembur project for 5300 per sq/ft. Not sure what is the exact location previously these locations quoted 8k and above. Just shows that new projects are priced lower then existing ones. The floor is being set so it is time to look for deals. I'm officially abandoning my bearish position on projects which accept full white money. The theory being that banks in today's economy will not lend money if they think the house will lose value or the builder and borrower is not credit worthy. So projects accepting full white have to price themselves to perfection, else they will see no traction with the buyers. This is a time to hunt for value, if you have the down-payment, you can demand your price.
By Netty Ismail
June 16 (Bloomberg) -- 36 South Investment Managers Ltd., whose Black Swan Fund gained 234 percent in 2008, is raising money for a new hedge fund, betting that government efforts to pump money into economies could result in hyperinflation.
The Excelsior Fund targets returns that will be five times the average annual rate of inflation of the Group of Five economies -- France, Germany, Japan, the U.K. and the U.S. -- should the rate exceed 5 percent, Jerry Haworth, co-founder of the firm, said yesterday. Raising $100 million for the fund would be a “good” amount, he said.
“There is a sharply increased risk of greater than 5 percent inflation starting from now,” Haworth said in a telephone interview from London. “We are in the lag period between when the seeds of inflation are sown and when their off- spring, that is higher prices, are evident for all to see.”
U.S. President Barack Obama is selling record amounts of debt to try to end the steepest U.S. recession in 50 years, while Japanese Prime Minister Taro Aso has unveiled three stimulus packages worth 25 trillion yen ($261 billion) since taking office in September. Governments around the world selling record amounts of debt may devalue currencies against assets and spark inflation.
Most investors are underestimating the risk of inflation, Haworth said. Consumer prices in the U.S., the world’s largest economy, are set to rise 1.7 percent next year, following a 0.6 percent decline this year, according to the median of 70 economists surveyed by Bloomberg.
Inflation Risk
“There is certainly talk about inflation but people might think of inflation at 5 percent or 6 percent,” Zimbabwean-born Haworth said. “We’re talking 5, 10, 15, 20 percent or more.”
Investor Marc Faber said on May 27 he was “100 percent sure” that U.S. prices may increase at rates “close to” Zimbabwe’s gains, and the U.S. economy will enter “hyperinflation” because the Federal Reserve will be reluctant to raise interest rates. Zimbabwe’s inflation rate reached 231 million percent in July, the last annual rate published by the statistics office.
Universa Investments LP, the hedge-fund firm advised by “Black Swan” author Nassim Taleb, is also adding a strategy betting that stimulus efforts won’t prevent deflation or could result in hyperinflation.
Inflation will likely be “very low” through 2010, said Alvin Liew, an economist at Standard Chartered Plc in Singapore. There will only be “a risk of very high inflation” starting in 2011 if governments fail to rein in “those excesses that they did to stimulate the economy in the near future,” he said.
“For now, I will be more concerned about how sustainable the growth recovery path is,” Liew said. “When we move into the later part of 2010, investors should pay more attention to inflation.”
Options
36 South’s Excelsior Fund will buy long-dated options it considers cheap and that “stand a good chance of outperforming in an inflationary environment,” Haworth said. Options are contracts to buy or sell a security by a certain date at a specific price.
The fund will wager on an increase in commodity and equity prices, bond yields and increased currency volatility.
“It’s a very high-risk, high-return fund,” said Haworth, who has been trading derivatives for more than 20 years as the former head of equity derivatives at Johannesburg-based Investec Ltd., and co-founder of Peregrine Holdings Ltd., a South African money manager and stockbroker.
The firm will be marketing the fund in the next three months.
36 South has closed its Black Swan Fund, which bet on risk- aversion events, and returned the money to investors after profiting from last year’s global markets rout.
Returns on the inflation fund “could be even higher than the Black Swan Fund though the likelihood is smaller as options are more expensive than they were when the Black Swan positions were bought,” Haworth said.
By Netty Ismail
June 16 (Bloomberg) -- 36 South Investment Managers Ltd., whose Black Swan Fund gained 234 percent in 2008, is raising money for a new hedge fund, betting that government efforts to pump money into economies could result in hyperinflation.
The Excelsior Fund targets returns that will be five times the average annual rate of inflation of the Group of Five economies -- France, Germany, Japan, the U.K. and the U.S. -- should the rate exceed 5 percent, Jerry Haworth, co-founder of the firm, said yesterday. Raising $100 million for the fund would be a “good” amount, he said.
“There is a sharply increased risk of greater than 5 percent inflation starting from now,” Haworth said in a telephone interview from London. “We are in the lag period between when the seeds of inflation are sown and when their off- spring, that is higher prices, are evident for all to see.”
U.S. President Barack Obama is selling record amounts of debt to try to end the steepest U.S. recession in 50 years, while Japanese Prime Minister Taro Aso has unveiled three stimulus packages worth 25 trillion yen ($261 billion) since taking office in September. Governments around the world selling record amounts of debt may devalue currencies against assets and spark inflation.
Most investors are underestimating the risk of inflation, Haworth said. Consumer prices in the U.S., the world’s largest economy, are set to rise 1.7 percent next year, following a 0.6 percent decline this year, according to the median of 70 economists surveyed by Bloomberg.
Inflation Risk
“There is certainly talk about inflation but people might think of inflation at 5 percent or 6 percent,” Zimbabwean-born Haworth said. “We’re talking 5, 10, 15, 20 percent or more.”
Investor Marc Faber said on May 27 he was “100 percent sure” that U.S. prices may increase at rates “close to” Zimbabwe’s gains, and the U.S. economy will enter “hyperinflation” because the Federal Reserve will be reluctant to raise interest rates. Zimbabwe’s inflation rate reached 231 million percent in July, the last annual rate published by the statistics office.
Universa Investments LP, the hedge-fund firm advised by “Black Swan” author Nassim Taleb, is also adding a strategy betting that stimulus efforts won’t prevent deflation or could result in hyperinflation.
Inflation will likely be “very low” through 2010, said Alvin Liew, an economist at Standard Chartered Plc in Singapore. There will only be “a risk of very high inflation” starting in 2011 if governments fail to rein in “those excesses that they did to stimulate the economy in the near future,” he said.
“For now, I will be more concerned about how sustainable the growth recovery path is,” Liew said. “When we move into the later part of 2010, investors should pay more attention to inflation.”
Options
36 South’s Excelsior Fund will buy long-dated options it considers cheap and that “stand a good chance of outperforming in an inflationary environment,” Haworth said. Options are contracts to buy or sell a security by a certain date at a specific price.
The fund will wager on an increase in commodity and equity prices, bond yields and increased currency volatility.
“It’s a very high-risk, high-return fund,” said Haworth, who has been trading derivatives for more than 20 years as the former head of equity derivatives at Johannesburg-based Investec Ltd., and co-founder of Peregrine Holdings Ltd., a South African money manager and stockbroker.
The firm will be marketing the fund in the next three months.
36 South has closed its Black Swan Fund, which bet on risk- aversion events, and returned the money to investors after profiting from last year’s global markets rout.
Returns on the inflation fund “could be even higher than the Black Swan Fund though the likelihood is smaller as options are more expensive than they were when the Black Swan positions were bought,” Haworth said.
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